Oddworld at E3

[Phylum]

Also, he was employee of the year.

[Varrok]

I imagine it's not a big accomplishment considering that all of the other mudokon employees do nothing more than just scrubing floors under their feet

[AlexFili]

Oddworld on the Wii U... Yes!

[Xavier]

Also, I don't like how the mud at the end says Abe's name when he was greeted. This is something that's been bugging me since MO. The natives in MO I can understand greeting Abe by name because by then word about him has probably gotten out, but the scrubs have probably never heard of him, and in NNT he's just starting his journey so how does anyone know him by name what the heck

There are 99 mudokon workers in Rupturefarms. The rest is operated by machines or sligs. Considering Abe has worked with the others since infancy and never went anywhere else, he'd probably know everyone.

Also, he was employee of the year.

Yes I was just about to point out that "employee of the year" bit.

Remember in the original AO vision each mud is sleeping in a tiny ball equipped with a television set.


This television set is there with the sole purpose to indoctrinate the muds and convince them they are actually living a pretty decent life. Part of the program is without doubt the employee of the year initiative. So it wouldn't surprise me that Abe's face flashed like a thousand times on those screens, showing the other muds that their work is recognised and appreciated. This would explain why every mud knows about Abe.

[Nepsotic]

Shit, I'm surprised nobody pointed out how awful Abe looks in that small Wii cutscene. That's terrible. Placeholder, right?

[Hulaabeo]

Shit, I'm surprised nobody pointed out how awful Abe looks in that small Wii cutscene. That's terrible. Placeholder, right?

He has a mustache, yes.

[Nepsotic]

It's not just that, the whole thing looks off.

[STM]

You look off. Hah!

I always wondered how the mudokons actually got into those balls.

[Xavier]

What do you mean vepzotic? I was actually pleased by the quality of it, I did not expected it to be this pretty.

[Crashpunk]

It's not just that, the whole thing looks off.

I think your expectations are far too high for you to be ever happy with New 'N' Tasty.

You also have to remember that it's an indie game, not a giant triple A title with hundreds of people working on it.

[Jbot123]

I always wondered how the mudokons actually got into those balls.

The balls are hanging from wires, so maybe the move on a cable to where it would be safe to get in one. Like a docking bay or something.

[Bullet Magnet]

Or lower to the ground to let them in and out, but raise high in the air to keep them in.

[Nate]

Or lower to the ground to let them in and out, but raise high in the air to keep them in.

This was pretty much what I had assumed.

[Crashpunk]

Or Flying Sligs carried them there.

It was hard work but it was worth it.

[STM]

...need to spread some rep around.

[Wil]

Well this has been an interesting thread to read, and one I haven't had a clear idea of how to approach. Let me see what specific and general things I can reply to.

First of all, that screenshot in OXM was taken without any lighting except the single light used to build the level. As you can see from the E3 screens and video, the lighting makes it seem much closer to the original. A number of times I've glimpsed the artists' screens in the corner of my eye and had to double take to see if they were looking at their own work or had brought up the original screen for reference.

Lighting is going to be a massive undertaking. Oddworld has always had a surprisingly specific lighting style, and our environment artists have talked long and hard with Lorne about how to replicate it. But you have to remember that we can't just airbrush in some shadow or highlight wherever we want. We aren't playing with paintings, we're creating 3D spaces, and the lighting has to make sense in that context.

A lot of those things are still place holders I Would have thought. So bearing that in mind, I think I just wet myself a bit from excitement.

Shit, I'm surprised nobody pointed out how awful Abe looks in that small Wii cutscene. That's terrible. Placeholder, right?

We're beyond the stage of having placeholders, but this is still alpha, so of course not everything is final. But the character models that have been done are final. What about Abe looks wrong to you, Nepsotic?

Do the scrabs seem smaller than they used to to anyone else?

Elum looks pretty tiny, too.

They're the correct size. They probably look different because now there's perspective, whereas before everything was perfectly side-on and represented as being equally distant from the camera at all times.

The areas lack a certain uniqueness to them that they had in the original too, somehow...

A lot more uniqueness is going into different areas in New 'n' Tasty, compared with the large amounts of cut-and-paste art that went into the original screens.

Oh, and why does that slig explode in the lightning barrier o3o

Heh, we spotted that. Just a little mistake of the wrong death event. It's a simple fix, and it's probably already been done.

I also think that the falling meat doesn't look like it's falling quite right.

It's funny how slow things fall in engine when they're obeying all the same laws of physics as they would in reality. The falling meat has a number of simple numbers to describe its initial speed at spawn, mass, speed of rotation. It's a simple matter to play around with them until they seem right, but as others have said, sound plays a huge part in conveying their plausible physicality.

The only thing I really noticed was the bird portal effect that Glitch told me in person was a placeholder.

I think any point before something so glaringly pre-alpha has been replaced is too early to make judgements.

The placeholder effect we used in the Eurogamer footage has been replaced by this one.

Also, I don't like how the mud at the end says Abe's name when he was greeted. This is something that's been bugging me since MO. The natives in MO I can understand greeting Abe by name because by then word about him has probably gotten out, but the scrubs have probably never heard of him, and in NNT he's just starting his journey so how does anyone know him by name what the heck

But you don't even comment on the Native scrubbing the floor.

The slig looks like a weakling, and just not scary (would lowering its underbelly/underhead make it look bulkier and more menacing?).

Sligs aren't bulky, they're scrawny.

I always wondered how the mudokons actually got into those balls.

They raise and lower. They're lowered to the ground to let Muds in and out, then suspended in the tower overnight. As Employee of the Year, Abe's cell gets suspended higher than anyone else's.

[Varrok]

Shit, I'm surprised nobody pointed out how awful Abe looks in that small Wii cutscene. That's terrible. Placeholder, right?

We're beyond the stage of having placeholders, but this is still alpha, so of course not everything is final. But the character models that have been done are final. What about Abe looks wrong to you, Nepsotic?

I agree with Nepsotic. You can't honestly say that this:


looks exactly like this:



Okay, in case you don't see that much of a difference (which I find quite strange), I'm talking about his face, specifically his eye areas.

Lighting is going to be a massive undertaking. Oddworld has always had a surprisingly specific lighting style, and our environment artists have talked long and hard with Lorne about how to replicate it. But you have to remember that we can't just airbrush in some shadow or highlight wherever we want. We aren't playing with paintings, we're creating 3D spaces, and the lighting has to make sense in that context.

I really hope you'll work it out, because lights and shadows are incredibly important to keep the atmosphere of Oddworld, and the current lightning is... well, sorry to say that, but not good enough in my opinion.

Also, why did you make that cutscene animation so overly cartoonish, JAW? I know it wasn't very realistic to begin with, but... darn... It was a serious moment of the intro, and it just killed it. You might as well add this:





... you promised, JAW.

[Nepsotic]

Alright, I was being too harsh. It doesn't look awful, but there is something off about the face. Like Varrok said, I'm relatively sure it's the eyes.
I don't want to shit on JAW's hard work, because it's not bad, but is there no way to import the models from the original FMVs?
Thinking about it, that might be a bad idea.

[Varrok]

It's not a horrible model. It's just the face that looks bad. Everything else is fine.

[Slog Bait]

But you don't even comment on the Native scrubbing the floor.

D'oh my bad

Wait why is it scrubbing the floor of a desert I'm so confused

[OANST]

Were you guys expecting the same kind of budget for CG cutscenes that the original games had?

[Varrok]

Were you guys expecting the same kind of budget for CG cutscenes that the original games had?

It's not nearly as expensive now as it was in 1997.

[DarkHoodness]

Also, why did you make that cutscene animation so overly cartoonish, JAW? I know it wasn't very realistic to begin with, but... darn... It was a serious moment of the intro, and it just killed it.

That post made me laugh a lot. Although you may have a point with the face (except I think it doesn't look bad, it's just different from the original, which is why it's probably jarring to some), I want to point out:
You're getting that impression from a couple of seconds of low quality footage, without its soundtrack and context? Comparing it to the original FMV, his movements are just as goofy.

[Varrok]

Nah, I wouldn't say that original animation is just as goofy. This one from Wii U trailer/teaser is much goofier. The original is goofy *a bit*. Like, a perfect balance between goofy and climatic.

[MeechMunchie]

I agree with the points about his face. He should look a little more haggard and wrinkly, like the aging janitor at a factory or something. But at the end of the day, it is a minor complaint and probably not worth it in terms of hours:impact.

The placeholder effect we used in the Eurogamer footage has been replaced by this one.

Oh. Well, as a central game mechanic, this is more of a sticking point. They're sparkly and blue, which I feel is entirely too fairytale. Admittedly Abe's chant motes are blue, so you might be trying to go for a visual connection there, but the firey look fits much better with Oddworld's primal/grimy aesthetic. On a more conceptual note, the blue might give the impression of calm and safety, but the fire gives the impression of rebellion and defiant freedom, with a certain "tribal" quality. There are advantages to both, but I'd prefer to go with the latter.

The spiralling plughole animation is a bit less dramatic than the old crash-and-split ring of torches (in 2D we could only see the top and bottom ones, but I always assumed it was a ring), but I might just be getting too sentimental about the original. But then, I can't see any particular reason why the new one would be "better". If it ain't broke... as they say.

Also, I haven't seen the entire opening animation, but it would be nice if one or two of the birds could just be pecking at the floor while idle. Even if they are sentient manifestations of the Mudokon spirit, it always seemed odd that they'd spend all day and night flying in a perfect circle just in case the saviour of the Mudokons arrived at that moment. Even angels sit back and tune their lyres occasionally.

I see you haven't made it so you can glimpse the Monsaic Sanctum through it, but I could take or leave that (though, again, I would prefer it was put in).

[OANST]

It's not nearly as expensive now as it was in 1997.

Of that quality? Yeah....it's pretty expensive.

[Scrabaniac]

I like how they have adapted the Bells in the temple, it makes more sense having a rock hanging on a rope than a floating metal ball, the shape also makes it look more mystical

[seriouslyoddfan]

It's funny how slow things fall in engine when they're obeying all the same laws of physics as they would in reality. The falling meat has a number of simple numbers to describe its initial speed at spawn, mass, speed of rotation. It's a simple matter to play around with them until they seem right, but as others have said, sound plays a huge part in conveying their plausible physicality.

Hey Wil, I just had a quick comment regarding reality. Are you guys attempting to replicate the experience of gravity on Oddworld?

On Earth we know that objects accelerate at about 9.8 [m/s^2] (near the surface).

Perhaps someone has done the math already for Oddworld?

We know that Oddworld's surface area is ten times that of Earth: A_odd = 10*A_earth; R_odd = sqrt(10)*R_earth; R_earth = 6378100 [m]

As assumption we can take the density of Oddworld to be the same as Earth's: rho_earth = rho_odd = 5515 [kg/m^3]

Volume of Oddworld: V_odd = (4/3)*pi*(R_odd)^3 = 3.4369E22 [m^3]

Mass of Oddworld: M_odd = rho * V_odd = 1.8954E26 [kg]

G = 6.6738E-11 [m^3]/[kg * s^2] (yes, I'm assuming the Oddverse has a "universal gravitational constant" equivalent to our universe)

Finally, surface gravity of oddworld: g_odd = (G * M_odd)/(R_odd)^2 = 31 [m/s^2]


That's about three times the surface gravity of Earth!


Not expecting you guys to act on this...just food for thought.


SOF

[Varrok]

Somehow, I see an analogy to Abe's Oddysee to NnT transition here (Abe's face)

[Wil]

Alright, I was being too harsh. It doesn't look awful, but there is something off about the face. Like Varrok said, I'm relatively sure it's the eyes.
I don't want to shit on JAW's hard work, because it's not bad, but is there no way to import the models from the original FMVs?
Thinking about it, that might be a bad idea.

Well the original models are NURBs, and there's no way they're going to run in realtime. But the current models use the NURBs as reference, and they're pretty spot on. Last thing I did at work today was composite a picture of the two side by side. All the sizes and proportions and shapes are the same. Really. You can overlay them and fade between them and the lines stay in the same place.

There are three tiny differences. First, his eyelids are deeper. That's the only way I can describe it. You'll see what I mean when I post the comparison. Second, his mouth is a bit more downturned at the edges. Third, his stitches are a tad bigger, closer together and higher up. That's it. Only noticeable when you put them side by side. Not like Munch's Oddysee, where Abe is outrageously off-model. Miniscule differences.

I think two things are happening here. First, you're comparing very different images. The old ones and the new ones you're looking at next to each other have Abe in different poses, at different angles, under different lights. The pictures have different levels of brightness and contrast. And the old promotional pictures are just plain Photoshopped.

Second of all, and I have no tactful way of putting this, you're expecting an unreasonable level of similarity. It's diminishing returns for us to go delving for pixel-perfect reconstructions, especially since game design and computer graphics and the Oddworld style have all evolved so much since 1997. These cartoonish designs you're upset about are the originals, designed for tiny screens and limited colour palettes. And then you launch in unanimous criticism when a wrinkle is slightly to the left.

D'oh my bad

Wait why is it scrubbing the floor of a desert I'm so confused

Heh, someone must have left the wrong flag checked, giving him Scrub behaviour. Or maybe it's just inevitable since Natives don't react to farts in that way.

If it ain't broke... as they say.

Would you consider the current portal effect broken?

As assumption we can take the density of Oddworld to be the same as Earth's: rho_earth = rho_odd = 5515 [kg/m^3]

Well that's a bit of a problem, because as you identify, gravity and radius are both bigger. That means the planet's centre is going to be much denser. Unless you're suggesting Oddworld is filled with massive hollow seams, in which case you'd be right... but I would think they're not big enough to make that much of a difference in the end.

I admire your application of Earth-universe physics to fictional universes, don't get me wrong. But it's always worth remembering that Oddworld doesn't sit in the same universe. The laws governing it are different. And conveniently so!

More importantly, it's worth noting that Lorne has backed away from this "ten-times-the-size" concept. He first hinted at that to fans in Nate's most recent interview with him, but made it a bit more clear when he spoke with Katzenjammer Records.