Religious Debate - Homosexuality -

Sydney · #**151** 12-05-2004, 02:45 AM

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Yes. I personally feel that it would be most harmful for childrens minds to grow up in such an environment. Besides, scientific studies show that children grow best, when nurtured and raised by a mother and a father, of the respective genders.

Which scientific studies? Or did you make that shit up?

The scientific studies say otherwise, buster.

On measures of psychosocial well-being, school functioning, and romantic relationships and behaviors, the teens with same-sex parents were as well adjusted as their peers with opposite-sex parents. The authors found very few differences between the two groups.
http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/heal...out522343.html

A new Tufts-New England Medical Center Professor of Pediatrics study shows that children raised by homosexual parents have no differences from those raised in "traditional" families. Using over 25 years' worth of data, this study could draw attention to the issue of gay adoption.
http://www.tuftsdaily.com/vnews/disp.../41a2c9995f99b

Strike Witch · #**152** 12-05-2004, 03:27 AM

Religon.................is................

A prehistoric excuse for existence and a pathetic attempt to explain life....

feel free to to to to to to sssstone me with your cranky disagreeing posts...

But I don't care...........

:End transmission:---------------------...............

AquaticAmbi · #**153** 12-05-2004, 05:53 AM

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However I can see the problems [adoption by same sex parents] would create in society:

Stupid macho kids: Ha ha, he has two dads, lets batter 'im!

Yes, that would certainly occur; however, you have to remember that the prejudice in the US didn't end either after Civil Rights Act/legislation/whatever. Over the years, it did tone down, and the hate crimes and such became fewer and fewer.

Today's racism is nothing compared to the racism over 40 years ago. If gays received all their rights, there will be a violent uproar for years to come, but they will subside eventually. They always do. The conservative, far right "Christians" will eventually give up and give in. They used their religion in the past to justify not giving women and blacks rights, but both won them in the end. The same, I hope, will happen for people of any sexuality.

TheRaisin · #**154** 12-05-2004, 11:29 AM

Sydney, you rock.

Ghost, you rock.

Ambi, very true. A century from now people will probably learn about the big debate over homosexuality in the late 1900s and early twenty-first century, and they'll think "What kind of idiot simpletons were those people? Gay marriage? Big deal."

Rich · #**155** 12-05-2004, 12:37 PM

Exactly, then why not allow it? Eventually it will be allowed and eventually many years from now Christianity will become obsolete when scientists prove the Universe was not created by a superior being.

AquaticAmbi · #**156** 12-05-2004, 01:03 PM

Uhh.. I don't really see how Ghost rocks... his post was completely off-topic and meant to just be insulting, but whatever.

Anywho, Rich, that's exactly what I wonder. Someday, society will be like "It would have saved us a lot of trouble if we had just came to terms with our mistakes and realized things based on pure opinion has no place in decisions regarding rights." And Rich, believe it or not, but some people actually combine their beliefs in God and science.

***Nate*** · #**157** 12-05-2004, 01:20 PM

There's nothing wrong with that. You should read Gerald Schroeder.

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Two questions: who was Nebuchadnezer, and what was the importance of the cities Sodom and Gomorrah?

Nebuchadnezzar was the king of the babylonians who conquered the Judeans and destroyed the first Jewish Temple.

Sodom and Gomorrah were cities that were destroyed for their immoral behaviour. Christianity says its because of their sexual immorality but Judaism says its because of their antisocial behaviour (ie treating outsiders and visitors without respect).

EDIT: probably should explain that by 'respect' I'm referring to having enough respect for your guests not to rape, maim and murder them.
EDIT again: want to clarify that this is not a disagreement between Christianity and Judaism; rather they emphasise different aspects of the Sodomite's behaviour.

Rich · #**158** 12-05-2004, 01:22 PM

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some people actually combine their beliefs in God and science.

If the scientists can prove that universe wasn't created by God that should contradict what God supposedly said and in the process prove God doesn't exist.

Jacob · #**159** 12-05-2004, 01:34 PM

Didn't God do some hijinks with the temple of Babylon? Like, totally eviserate it because the people building it wanted to get closer to God and speak with him and learn the secrets of the Heavens?

Or is that, like, totally wrong?

I feel physically ill everytime i imagine the guy i'm in love with being with another guy. It's dangerous. For i have a tendency to play with fire. And i know where the other guy lives.

AquaticAmbi · #**160** 12-05-2004, 01:39 PM

You can't prove that a superior being does not exist, nor can you prove that one does exist. And if you meant something like finding solid fact that the Big Bang Theory is true, then that's excellent, because to me, that's proving how my God created the universe. I combine my faith in God with science. I don't think God just went *poof* Yay! There's the entire universe; I personally believe it was through some process that we call scientific, such as the Big Bang Theory. And the life on this planet was created through evolution, which is not contradictory if I believe God is the one doing it.

***Nate*** · #**161** 12-05-2004, 01:47 PM

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Didn't God do some hijinks with the temple of Babylon? Like, totally eviserate it because the people building it wanted to get closer to God and speak with him and learn the secrets of the Heavens?

Or is that, like, totally wrong?

close, but no cigar. You're talking about the tower of Babel (babel=babylon). According to the bible, the people there wanted to build a tower to declare war on god. So he caused them all to speak different languages which caused them all manner of problems. The tower-building ended when they all declared war on each other.

Abeguy · #**162** 12-05-2004, 04:18 PM

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Sodom and Gomorrah were cities that were destroyed for their immoral behaviour. Christianity says its because of their sexual immorality but Judaism says its because of their antisocial behaviour (ie treating outsiders and visitors without respect).

It was both

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Exactly, then why not allow it? Eventually it will be allowed and eventually many years from now Christianity will become obsolete when scientists prove the Universe was not created by a superior being.

That will never happen. Saying that the whole solar system was made by a big bang out of pure chance is like saying I can break a watch, put it in a bag, and shake it up, and open it with the chance of it being completely repaired and on time.

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close, but no cigar. You're talking about the tower of Babel (babel=babylon). According to the bible, the people there wanted to build a tower to declare war on god. So he caused them all to speak different languages which caused them all manner of problems. The tower-building ended when they all declared war on each other

close, but no cigar

actulley I will now quote from the holy book
"And they said, 'Come, let us build us a city and a tower with its top in the sky, to make a name for ourselves; else we shall be scattered all over the world'."

They wanted to be close to god which is one of the reasons, and also cause they didn't want to be seperated

"And the LORD saw what they were doing and said 'They have a common toungue and this is how they act? Come, let us go down and mix up their language so they shall be split.' So the LORD went down and scattered their language and called the land Babel, for he had confused their language"

It does not say that they declared war after that but war just comes like the snow and rain

don't mess wit me, I'm Jewish

***Nate*** · #**163** 12-05-2004, 04:46 PM

Me too Abeguy. Sometimes I just get mixed up with Midrash.

Sodom and Gomorrah - I didn't mean that Christianity and Judiasm claim different things; rather that they emphasise different things.

And one final tip for getting along well in the OWF: when discussing religion, never state something as an absolute. Just because you beleive something to be true doesn't necessarily mean it should be stated as fact.

***Alcar*** · #**164** 12-05-2004, 10:28 PM

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You can't prove that a superior being does not exist, nor can you prove that one does exist. And if you meant something like finding solid fact that the Big Bang Theory is true, then that's excellent, because to me, that's proving how my God created the universe. I combine my faith in God with science. I don't think God just went *poof* Yay! There's the entire universe; I personally believe it was through some process that we call scientific, such as the Big Bang Theory. And the life on this planet was created through evolution, which is not contradictory if I believe God is the one doing it.

I absolutely love you to bits (chocolate bits). That is exactly what I believe. Science and Religion complement each other, neither one is greater than the other. They both serve to explain the other, afterall

Oh, I must quote my dear friend Einstein:

:

Science without Religion is lame,
Religion without Science is blind.

Alcar...

Strike Witch · #**165** 12-06-2004, 02:16 AM

On science Vs Religon..........

A cursory reevaluation of hostile abilitys indicates a distinct tactical deficiency................

(Yay! I rocks!!!! w00tness!!!!!)

Methinks That Quantum Laws are abit different from watch-breaking,Abeguy.
If god exists, what part of his existence makes his abilitys of creation and universal control? Is his existence Theoretical or Definite? Do his abilitys have a limit? If so, what are they? What is his goal? These, and many more questions I would like to know............................

Rich · #**166** 12-06-2004, 08:44 AM

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if you meant something like finding solid fact that the Big Bang Theory is true, then that's excellent, because to me, that's proving how my God created the universe

Let me ask you. Do you believe everything in the bible such as a flood covering the whole world and Noah having two of every animal on his boat? (An impossibility considering the technology available when it was written)

Also is your image of God as he is made out to be in the bible or something you have created with your beliefs? In other words is your God the "real" Christian God.

You've probably gathered that I don't believe in God. Plus although the bible story has very good moral teachings thats all it is, a story, made up by people to control other people and an attempt at explaining things mankind cannot understand. Genesis claims that God made two people in the garden of eden but evidence shows that mankind evolved in Africa and traversed throughout the world during an ice age.
So if you believe in A God you would have to alter your beliefs.

*example of control using religion.

Poor man: me and the rest of the country are poor, we have no homes...I know, we'll rebel!
Rich man: Don't worry, because you're suffering now you will go to heaven and I'll go to hell, there's no need to rebel...

Nepharski · #**167** 12-06-2004, 10:55 AM

My goodness, how I detest the stench eminating from this thread. I shall return at a later moment in the day, to make my final stance and argument, and then be free of it's wretched fumes.

Side Note: Those among you who enjoy mocking the Bible, he's a novel concept...[I]read it[I]. For some of you (but not all, thank the lord), your delicious ignorance is most amusing.

Jacob · #**168** 12-06-2004, 11:09 AM

'your delicious ignorance is most amusing.'

Surely that's the Paedophile calling the Rapist 'sick'?

See...that was a slant on 'The pot calling the Kettle Black'!

Rich · #**169** 12-06-2004, 11:31 AM

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See...that was a slant on 'The pot calling the Kettle Black'!

Yes, indeed that's great...

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how I detest the stench eminating from this thread

Yes, this thread smells rather fishy...

Speaking of Fish they can't be INBRED like the rest of as Noah didn't need to keep them on his boat.

:

I shall return at a later moment in the day, to make my final stance and argument, and then be free of it's wretched fumes.

Bring it on

***Nate*** · #**170** 12-06-2004, 12:49 PM

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You've probably gathered that I don't believe in God. Plus although the bible story has very good moral teachings thats all it is, a story, made up by people to control other people and an attempt at explaining things mankind cannot understand. Genesis claims that God made two people in the garden of eden but evidence shows that mankind evolved in Africa and traversed throughout the world during an ice age.
So if you believe in A God you would have to alter your beliefs.

I refer you to my previous statement regarding absolute pronouncements. Just as no one religion can lay claim to the absolute truth, science (or at least your knowledge of science) can't either. Science is ultimately based on faith.

For example: one of the most widely held views of the sub-sub-sub-atomic particles is String Theory. The Strings fit in with a number of the calculations but the theory can never be confirmed or denied because the Strings are too small to test (If one atom was magnified to the size of the solar system, one string would be the size of a tree on Earth). Thus the physicists have faith in String Theory.

In any case, I have met many advanced physicists who beleive in religion, and who claim that their faith is based on their work.

In conclusion, don't make claims that the bible is just a story as that is merely your own, rather demeaning, opinion

Rich · #**171** 12-06-2004, 01:16 PM

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don't make claims that the bible is just a story as that is merely your own, rather demeaning, opinion

Ok, I can except that and I'm sorry, I know my opinions are rather demeaning. My OPINION is that the way God is portrayed in the bible is mankinds interpretation of God as no-one could be sure as to what God is/would be like.

Also we've gone rather off-topic. My Religion, that I'm not the best follower of, doesn't as far as I can see condemn homosexuality as it claims that ALL feelings and emotions are a waste of time. Therefore feeling hate (homophobia) or compassion (loving someone) doesn't amount for anything except in terms of karma.

As for karma, I believe that supporting gay rights is the right thing to do. So I will have done something positive and shall be rewarded.

***Nate*** · #**172** 12-06-2004, 01:21 PM

What's your religion?

Rich · #**173** 12-06-2004, 01:31 PM

I try to follow the basic teachings of Bhuddism.
As in the four noble truths and so on. I say I don't know much about it but I know it's the religion for me: No God.

Nepharski · #**174** 12-06-2004, 01:45 PM

...And now we return to our regularly scheduled oddcast...

Firstly, alow me to commence with some, "pre-emptive," spring cleaning.

*scoops up all his previous posts into a pile, and slips them into a paper shreader.*

After a recent discussion with my father, I have decided to slightly alter my position on this topic. I also realized, that all (or most all) of my previous posts in this thread:

A. Are confusing.
B. Contain a somewhat homophobic flavor.

As such, I have declared a revolution, of sorts, am now casting these all behind me, placing forth a fresh post. This post will, single-handedly, say what I have attempted to and should have said.

I retain my distaste and disagreement with Homosexuality, but am somewhat altering my dealings with them, and topics related with them. Before, I might have seemed somewhat...homophobic. Well, a talk with my father revealed something I missed: We must be tolerant, and accept the choices (stay tuned) of the individuals around ourselves. I realized that I had been on a warpath, of sorts, and shall, from this moment onwards, correct my behavior. I can, and will, tolerate these people.

Onwards, then...

Only 10% of the planet is, at this time, Homosexual. However, if one was to poll the Homosexual community, only 10% (of that 10%) are female. What we have here, is a 1:9 ratio. Now, nature keeps things balanced. The ratio of males to females, this to that, them to these, yadda, yadda, yadda...is very balanced. Slightly off, yes, but still, balanced. But 1 out of 10? Heavens no. 4 to 6? Yes, most likely. 3 to 7? Um...somewhat, perhaps. But 1 to 9? That's insane! But even this...is not the end! Most (So, a majority then) Lesbians will, when asked publicly, admit to chosing their lifestyle. Male or Female? They chose female...and as most will admit this, that already astounding ratio is stretched even further! Natural? I, personally think not.

NOTICE: As my mother as expressed as desire to make use of the computer at this time, it is my regret to inform you that this post must be continued at a later time...possibly a later date. But, I swear that I shall return, and address the following:

-Morality
-Homosexual Animals
-Gay Marraige
-Some information related with the Bible some of us would do well to know/remember.

To Be Continued...

Rich · #**175** 12-06-2004, 01:51 PM

Why are people bickering about humanity dying out? Just because they are homsexual doesn't mean they can't have sex with the opposite sex to save the human race.
They may choose not to but I'm sure they would with a bit of persuasion.

AquaticAmbi · #**176** 12-06-2004, 02:26 PM

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Let me ask you. Do you believe everything in the bible such as a flood covering the whole world and Noah having two of every animal on his boat? (An impossibility considering the technology available when it was written)

I can't really say yes or no; I'm neutrally opinionated on many parts of the Bible. I certainly believe that certain bits are fact, such as the existence of God and all the Jesus stuff. On the other hand, I believe several things are meant to be more... metaphorical or exaggerated... but not in a negative way. The whole flood thing... I doubt it happened, but I don't find that crucial to my faith in God... I believe that through God, anything is possible, but mostlikely that didn't happen. Something like a flood in some land somewhere happened and it was written about as the whole land but some where along the way someone thought it meant the entire world... or something. Oh, and yes, I completely understand the Bible has been subject to alterations and such.

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Also is your image of God as he is made out to be in the bible or something you have created with your beliefs? In other words is your God the "real" Christian God.

Every single person that is Christian has differing opinions to some degree. To say that mine aren't the typical ones is not the same as saying I don't believe in the "real" Christian God.

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Genesis claims that God made two people in the garden of eden but evidence shows that mankind evolved in Africa and traversed throughout the world during an ice age.
So if you believe in A God you would have to alter your beliefs.

Yes... a fine example of something I believe is perhaps more metaphorical. Actually, I have many hypotheses about creation. It would take so long to explain them all. Two examples of factors involving evolution that I take into consideration include: 1) Through evolution, God would still be creating the first humans from "dust", especially if the Big Bang Theory is true. 2) A person that claims that God just went *poof* "I've just created a single man and women" technically has to believe in evolution of the human species occuring at least after the creation of the first two. If the whole human race came from only 2 individuals, changes in the population (the basic definition of evolution) had to take place in order to get the variety of races we have today. This would have taken place as humans began to spread across the world as they adjusted to differing climates and whatever.

Oh, and in response to your saying the two don't agree, I personally say the presumed evidence shows "the Garden of Eden" metaphor, story, or fact (for the sake of not ruling out anything is possible through God) was in Africa.

***Nate*** · #**177** 12-06-2004, 03:35 PM

I once heard Gerald Schroeder, a biblical scientist, speak and he suggested an interesting interpretation on Genesis:

The six days of creation are rather six 'eras'. You can interpret the bible to be talking about the big bang and evolution (eg creation of light is creation of the energy that makes up the universe, seperation of land and sea is the forming of the cosmos, etc). This is a loose interpretation of course.

Continuing on from that he says that mankind evolved from the ape in such a way that two homonids were born that had 'mutated' into humans whilst their parents and families counted as neanderthals (or whatever). Thus humanity is evolved from those two - Adam and Eve. Of course there would have been interbreeding between the new humans and the pre-humans over the years but eventually the humans won out. Apparently there is some reference in Genesis to intelligent beings before Adam was created.

I'm not sure whether I agree with that theory myself, but I thought I'd throw it in anyway.

Neph, I question your statistic that most Lesbians choose that way of life. I'm not saying that it never happens - my brother was telling me a while back about someone he knew who chose lesbianism because she was a wacko feminist and thought no man was good enough for her - but I doubt that it is most.

AquaticAmbi · #**178** 12-06-2004, 05:27 PM

Nate, that was so awesome. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. I don't believe the world was created in what we consider days, and that pretty much sums up a lot of what I thought to some degree, only much more scientifically backed. Like I said in some post earlier in this thread, God probably defines certain things differently than we do, such as "all powerful" and "all knowing", and in this case, days. A dåy for us compared to his eternity-ness is like a second to him.

Majic · #**179** 12-06-2004, 05:36 PM

When it comes to some of the stories in the Bible, I would always keep in mind the basic principles of ancient literature. From what I've gathered in my time, many stories are based on exhaggerated events and characters, perhaps based loosely on real characters. Not to mention the history of the book itself. Back in the days of hand copying books, there's nothing to say certain individuals of the church (which has a touchy history in itself) didn't make their own interpretive alterations to the text. The translation from Latin to the old (more or less) tribal-esuqe language of Enlgish didn't happen for a good while, presenting plenty of oppurtunity for editing by the upper class, literate church. Add to that none of the original texts have been discovered...

I don't much find The Bible's word to be a solid argument. To each their own, however.

Strike Witch · #**180** 12-06-2004, 06:32 PM

Yay for String Theory!

..... Bonobo sound abit yukki to meeeeeee......

Religon.....I suppose that it might be important for.......um?....Er....Something...........A-hah!
Speech! Without religon, We'd have nothing to curse!

I shall now remake Alcars words!!!!

A world without religon lacks character, But A world without science is pathetic...............(my personal belief)
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Ghost